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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just wondering how many guys are still running the wastegate hack /mod and how you are liking it still and are there any issues? I'm guessing this would need to be reversed if ever bringing it back to Kia??? Also anyone have a working link? The one in the sticky isn't working again...

I plan on getting a SRI for the wife's car and possibly going this mod. I've been getting her into going to the track so she wants to start modding a bit now. Don't want to go too crazy at the moment just due to warranty reasons. However after reading all the threads lately about warranty trouble...I'm not holding my breath that they would have already denied me for changing my own spark plugs and loosening the clamps to do the bov VTA mod....lol. I still want mods to be as easily removable as possible.

Also any other easy mods people have in mind? I've already done the intercooler resonator delete. And a DIY axle back. Have been toying with the idea of making a bolt in pipe to delete the second cat.
 

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I don't recommend doing that mod at all.

The ECU will find ways to limit any changes caused by that mod, and your results won't be ideal. You're messing with a pretty sophisticated and truthfully a very reliable and efficient system.
I'd leave it alone and properly increase the power with bolt-ons and a good tune.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
When you say "results won't be ideal" do you mean I won't gain as much as a tune or there will be negative effects from doing this? I thought this mod was merely changing the boost reference point to a more stable source that had less heat soak? Therefore resulting in a little more boost along with smoother boost throughout the rpms. Maybe we are talking about 2 separate things? Regardless I trust your advice and think highly of your products and will more than likely be picking up a SRI for this thing.

A full tune is definitely out at the moment. I'm not ready to kiss my warranty goodbye completely just yet. And an extra ecu with a tune just doesn't seem worth the price for the gains.. Just looking to add a few things so she could pick up a couple tenths at the track when we go. She has a good time but I know she wants to go a little faster...;)

Edit... was looking at the midpipe earlier as well.. looks a bit harder to replicate with a straight pipe than I first had thought. I don't have to worry about emissions but has anyone had a problem with passing them after removing or clearing out the second cat? I would like this thing to still pass emissions just in case we sell it. Thinking about just knocking the cat out that way it still looks stock.
 

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Im actually curious on what issues youve ran into with the wastegate reference point mod 6th? I have been running it for months and if theres something that its affecting negatively I'd like to know. For my two cents its an easy mod to do and revert back. Strangely the link on the veloster turbo site is no longer there. Youre correct 04silvy that it simply moves where the wastegate actuator solenoid gets its signal from. I havent noticed any ill affects, however this mod doesnt unlock tons of hidden power. It did seem to improve midrange and topend boost slightly but its not going to drastically change anything.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I think I had read you were one of the ones that have had food luck with this mod. I'm new to these cars but not new to things high performance. I've also had a few turbo cars and there are always similar mods that come up like this. I believe when I had my srt4 guess we're doing a similar thing to squeeze another lb or 2 of boost.

And honestly prince I'm not looking for much. Just to add a little something. We go to the track during the nice weather months about once a month and she has just started to run her car. But now that she's bitten by the bug she wants a little more. I'm a realist however...and i know these turbo motors are more ECO than performance. If it gains ANYTHING....she'll be happy.

Edit: if you get a chance prince..could you maybe take some more detailed pics where everything is hooked up? Also if you remember what parts were required? If not no biggie. If I can figure out how this was done...I'll put together a quick how to for our site ...if all goes well with it.
 

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When you say "results won't be ideal" do you mean I won't gain as much as a tune or there will be negative effects from doing this? I thought this mod was merely changing the boost reference point to a more stable source that had less heat soak? Therefore resulting in a little more boost along with smoother boost throughout the rpms. Maybe we are talking about 2 separate things? Regardless I trust your advice and think highly of your products and will more than likely be picking up a SRI for this thing.

A full tune is definitely out at the moment. I'm not ready to kiss my warranty goodbye completely just yet. And an extra ecu with a tune just doesn't seem worth the price for the gains.. Just looking to add a few things so she could pick up a couple tenths at the track when we go. She has a good time but I know she wants to go a little faster...;)

Edit... was looking at the midpipe earlier as well.. looks a bit harder to replicate with a straight pipe than I first had thought. I don't have to worry about emissions but has anyone had a problem with passing them after removing or clearing out the second cat? I would like this thing to still pass emissions just in case we sell it. Thinking about just knocking the cat out that way it still looks stock.
I'd like to see the thread or threads where people have tried this, and I'd like to see logs of boost too. The ECU targets torque first and foremost, and it then adjusts boost pressure required to meet that torque level. One way or another, it's going to attain boost for the torque programmed in the ECU. There are also several limiters that pertain to or effect boost/engine load. In my car, I've never had a problem with the way boost behaves. The system works and works very well.

You have to remember having a tune doesn't void your warranty. If you go in with a blown motor and they are smart enough to look at the computer for a tune, then yea they'll probably tell you to pound sand.
If you are like me and you have your smart key sensor in your door handle go bad, then they have to fix that. The tune has nothing to do with that so they fixed it under warranty.

Also, the tune is the BIGGEST bang for your dollar, hands down. It's still close to the top of that list even after adding a new ECU. However I've discovered that I can get used ones to tune as spares, so that cost will be coming down very soon.

Intake - 8whp gain - $205 - $25.625 per HP
FMIC Kit - 15whp - $869 - $57.93 per HP
Downpipe - 15whp - $400 - $26.66 per HP
Stage 0 Tune (without spare) - 30whp - $410 (cheapest shipping option) - $13.66 per HP
Stage 0 Tune (with NEW Spare Manual trans ECU) - 30whp - $27.66 per HP
Stage 0 Tune (with cheap used spare ECU, maybe $150) - 30whp - $560 - $18.66 per HP

Hope this helps :)

Im actually curious on what issues youve ran into with the wastegate reference point mod 6th? I have been running it for months and if theres something that its affecting negatively I'd like to know. For my two cents its an easy mod to do and revert back. Strangely the link on the veloster turbo site is no longer there. Youre correct 04silvy that it simply moves where the wastegate actuator solenoid gets its signal from. I havent noticed any ill affects, however this mod doesnt unlock tons of hidden power. It did seem to improve midrange and topend boost slightly but its not going to drastically change anything.
I haven't ran into issues myself, I just don't agree with modifying a system that doesn't need to be modified. This is especially after I know how that system works with the ECU.
Do you have datalogs you can take (or have taken) with Torque Pro or another logging app? I'd like to see the boost curve and values. That way I can actually see if you've changed anything.

The design engineers at LKia/Hyundai do what they do for a reason, and I trust their years of development experience on systems like this. If you were to get a tune in the future, make sure you put it back they way it was.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Not disagreeing that these ecus are smart and very well may adjust for things being done. But if this true...what is to say it wouldn't correct for most/all mods? Wouldn't it eventually learn them and adjust it back to stock? Still asking here... not arguing.

Also they are DEFINITELY going to check the ecu with any major problem... I could almost guarantee this. When I had my srt4 I bought it with a dealer installed mopar stage 2 tune (that I didn't know about at first) then was later attempt be denied...by the same dealer.. for a turbo issue. So dealers will do anything they can to deny if they feel.

As far as the ecu tuning price goes...that wasn't meant to be a stab at anyone's pricing or anything. I know that tuning is ALWAYS the best mod. But it seems that HP to price on this car simply isn't worth it for me. If I read it right...it was about 20HP for an AT? So looking at almost $1100 for a tune on an extra ecu? Can't see spending that for 20 or even 30HP.

So basically if there isn't anything to be gained on a few bolt ons ..then she will stay as she is. After the warranty is up or close then maybe a few more things will happen.

Edit: just read you had $150 for a used ecu. Where are people getting these at? That makes the price a little more manageable...
 

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Not disagreeing that these ecus are smart and very well may adjust for things being done. But if this true...what is to say it wouldn't correct for most/all mods? Wouldn't it eventually learn them and adjust it back to stock? Still asking here... not arguing.

Also they are DEFINITELY going to check the ecu with any major problem... I could almost guarantee this. When I had my srt4 I bought it with a dealer installed mopar stage 2 tune (that I didn't know about at first) then was later attempt be denied...by the same dealer.. for a turbo issue. So dealers will do anything they can to deny if they feel.

As far as the ecu tuning price goes...that wasn't meant to be a stab at anyone's pricing or anything. I know that tuning is ALWAYS the best mod. But it seems that HP to price on this car simply isn't worth it for me. If I read it right...it was about 20HP for an AT? So looking at almost $1100 for a tune on an extra ecu? Can't see spending that for 20 or even 30HP.

So basically if there isn't anything to be gained on a few bolt ons ..then she will stay as she is. After the warranty is up or close then maybe a few more things will happen.

Edit: just read you had $150 for a used ecu. Where are people getting these at? That makes the price a little more manageable...
The thing you're missing is when you add mods that help with VE (airflow) the computer is not aware of this. All it wants to do is target torque. As long as those targets are recognized internally, nothing else happens in terms of "correcting" things.
The better VE is happening though, and since the ECU has targeted A/F ratios the power comes from more air and the extra fuel meeting those targets.

This is why you can add intercoolers, exhausts, intakes and they SHOW power increases on a dyno. Those increases never go away either.

When you try to externally control boost, that sets off red flags in there. If the sensors aren't reading what the ECU says they should be there are limiters and safety tables that get used.
I'm not trying to argue, just informing you of what's going on so you can make an educated decision on what to do with your car.

If there is proof of holding higher boost (and proof of higher power with it) I'd love to see some dynos or datalogs.

I find ECUs on ebay and car-part.com.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
So since we are on the subject. What are your thoughts on that second cat? Looks like its completely unmonitored and pretty useless. I thought about building a piece that I could bolt in and out...but didn't realize that it's pretty much the whole intermediate pipe. So that's out for now... I've seen some people just clear them. So far on this car I've kept everything bolt on and completely reversible...this obviously wouldn't be.

Disclaimer...this vehicle would obviously be for " track purposes only" if I did this... :rolleyes:
 

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I am following the thread...

so a question.
The ECU goal is to reach torque or A/F ratio or both?

Wastegate hack supposedly reroute boost reference and as a result, turbine would spin faster (sooner/quicker) providing more stable boost. Simply its response was better.
 

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So since we are on the subject. What are your thoughts on that second cat? Looks like its completely unmonitored and pretty useless. I thought about building a piece that I could bolt in and out...but didn't realize that it's pretty much the whole intermediate pipe. So that's out for now... I've seen some people just clear them. So far on this car I've kept everything bolt on and completely reversible...this obviously wouldn't be.

Disclaimer...this vehicle would obviously be for " track purposes only" if I did this... :rolleyes:
The downpipe and cat converters are all in a one piece unit. Gutting it would help with flow/power, but you already know it's not reversible lol.

I am following the thread...

so a question.
The ECU goal is to reach torque or A/F ratio or both?

Wastegate hack supposedly reroute boost reference and as a result, turbine would spin faster (sooner/quicker) providing more stable boost. Simply its response was better.
This doesn't make sense to me because since exhaust gases drive the turbine, you'd want to technically "delay" the opening of the wastegate so all of the exhaust energy is directed to the turbine to spool it as much as possible.
Then you have the gate operate to regulate boost. Having the gate open "quicker" means there is less exhaust gases that drive the turbine wheel to spool the turbo.

As for ECU logic, from all of my adventures with it, the order of "thought" is approximately like this:

Requested Torque THEN ->
requested engine load (air flow for torque) THEN ->
boost pressure for requested engine load / various turbo system limiter tables to control boost (running in parallel) THEN ->
Air/Fuel ratios applied to meet all of the above

While all of this is going on, spark advance (timing) is being performed based on engine load.

That is how I can explain it based of my experience thus far, which is about 30-40 hours of street tuning and almost 40 hours of dyno tuning with my software.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
6th...I thought the second cat was the first canister deal after the downpipe flange...that is in the midpipe? That is what I was talking about deleting... Is that not ?
The first thing in this pic after the flange..
images (1).jpg
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
OK thanks.. I read quite a few threads on it and most say it's a good easy mod for a little power. One thing people aren't saying...will it affect an emissions test? As in the sniffer part? I'm not to awful concerned as we don't have emissions here but I'd still like it to pass if it needed to.
 

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OK thanks.. I read quite a few threads on it and most say it's a good easy mod for a little power. One thing people aren't saying...will it affect an emissions test? As in the sniffer part? I'm not to awful concerned as we don't have emissions here but I'd still like it to pass if it needed to.
May or may not.
This is the second cat. I am not sure if it is monitored at all.
That supposed to burn what 1st did not. Hence, at idle you might be just fine as long as the first one performs OK.
 
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This doesn't make sense to me because since exhaust gases drive the turbine, you'd want to technically "delay" the opening of the wastegate so all of the exhaust energy is directed to the turbine to spool it as much as possible.
Then you have the gate operate to regulate boost. Having the gate open "quicker" means there is less exhaust gases that drive the turbine wheel to spool the turbo.

As for ECU logic, from all of my adventures with it, the order of "thought" is approximately like this:

Requested Torque THEN ->
requested engine load (air flow for torque) THEN ->
boost pressure for requested engine load / various turbo system limiter tables to control boost (running in parallel) THEN ->
Air/Fuel ratios applied to meet all of the above

While all of this is going on, spark advance (timing) is being performed based on engine load.

That is how I can explain it based of my experience thus far, which is about 30-40 hours of street tuning and almost 40 hours of dyno tuning with my software.
Now I see it.
Thanks.

I was under impression wastegate stays open under normal conditions, boost makes it open (WOT no vacuum, gate opens).
How is the w-gate driven? Solenoid or spring?


And since we are here - did you ever get any table saying what max boost is expected under WOT vs engine speed and gear? I know it is off topic a bit...
 

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I know I preach this all the time but for warranty, use the Magnuson Moss act. An intake cannot cause your trunk to not open etc or a bearing to spin. But not changing your oil could affect that bearing. But not changing your oil will not cause you to burn a hole in your piston etc. Basically it's there so you can say "prove it".

Now if you remove your cat then they can deny warranty on the part you welded it to our any corrosion caused by your new flange etc.

Basically just be smart about it and be ready to argue cause KIA's tech line is stupid and some dealers are shady.


Till then, mod on our run stock but no regrets either way
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 · (Edited)
May or may not.
This is the second cat. I am not sure if it is monitored at all.
That supposed to burn what 1st did not. Hence, at idle you might be just fine as long as the first one performs OK.
You're not making this decision any easier for me...lol. if I remove it it will just he a gut. Which I'm not sure why I'm worried about it...car is paid off and we plan on keeping it awhile, if we get rid of it it will more than likely be traded in anyhow.

I would just make a test pipe but the wife doesn't really want it any louder. I keep telling her loud means fast....;)
 
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I keep telling her loud means fast....;)
ha ha ha ha

You're not making this decision any easier for me...lol. if I remove it it will just he a gut.
Well, the first question - will you need emission test ever?
Besides, how about you simply get a pipe replacement so that you can keep the cat in your garage to replace when the time comes? Or get a part from eBay. Maybe there are some used ones...
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Never to the emissions... I live on the sticks... and probably always will. This is the only vehicle out of 4 that have cats still ...lol. You've convinced me.. gutting it tonight after work...
 
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