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Discussion Starter #1
Here is my simple water injection mod. Tied into the washer fluid line the other side is the innards of a squirt bottle tip.

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How is the water before the turbo making any difference? To me the turbo would just evaporate the water and still heat the charge and not do anything
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Engine Tuners are now starting to experiment with injecting fluids pre-turbo. Water, Alcohol, and Methanol are all being experimented with using varying amounts of ratios. The reason being that not only are you gaining the benefits of the cooling that will occur in the intake track, and eventually in the combustion chamber, but you are also cooling the intake charge of the air as it is being compressed.
When the turbocharger compresses the air at the compressor wheel, an enormous amount of heat is generated. This is why we must add intercoolers or after-coolers after the turbo to cool down that compressed air. While running low amounts of boost doesn’t necessarily require an intercooler, running high amounts of boost certainly requires one. As the turbo is asked to run higher and higher amounts of boost pressure, IE running a higher pressure ratio on its compressor map, the turbochargers efficiency drops and you loose efficiency to heat. By injecting water, or alcohol, or methanol pre turbo, you allow the liquid to absorb this heat as it changes from a liquid to a gas, which greatly drops the temperature of the compressed air.
Pro’s of Pre-turbo Injection:

1. Improves the efficiency of a turbo allowing a given turbochargers compressor to flow more air then the turbo’s compressor map says is possible.
2. Cools the intake air charge.
3. Fights off detonation and pre-ignition.
Con’s of Pre-turbo Injection:

1. Many have found that while it does help the temps and efficiency at the turbo, it is then not AS efficient at cooling temperatures in the combustion chamber as post turbo injection since most of the liquid has now been converted to a gas and cannot absorb as much heat.
2. Will eventually cause damage to the compressor wheel of the turbo. In extensive testing done by Volvo in the 1980’s on pre-turbo injection, they found that 80,000 to 100,000 miles of pre-turbo injection started to wear the compressor wheel. Once wear started to occur at this mileage, it was not as efficient and needed to be replaced. I don’t know if this is really that much of a “Con”, as most of us are lucky to get 80k-100k miles on our turbo’s.
 

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I understand the cooling part about it but to me you would inject it right on the cold pipe that most do to cool the charge even further then what the i.c already did.
 

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I think it would be better post intercooler as well. To me I think any air that is cooled will be warmed up again at least to ambient temp by the time it gets to tb. Did you notice any difference with intake temps?
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I'll post my data tomorrow. Check out the pros and cons above.. Also note that I have researched this aggressively and putting after intercooler has more risks involved. For example you need a high pressure fogger to prevent over spraying and actually causing negative effects. Note this 1.6 can be easily hydro locked if there is a nozzle failure. Also placement is critical.. This is a simple beneficial mod that I had some fun with. I know there is better options, but for the low risk, low price of this mod you can't beat it. ;)
 

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I suggest you just do a little more reading before you go along with this project
There has been a lot of R&D done by Tork as far as what mixture is best to be used and they suggest 100% meth. Any % of water introduced to the system didn't work as well as 100%. And I beleive once they got to 85/15 there was nothing but knock. There have been some members in the vt forum that have gone against this info and have learned the hard way.
100% or just don't bother
Also I would go post IC. Depending on the mixture is how close you go to the tb. If you intend to use a mixture of your choice, there are particular areas each mixture is best used
There is a meth thread on vt forums
Read it before you take any action
Pre turbo can cause compressor damage
And either way you look at pre being safe or not, if you think of what results in using meth is, going post should be your option. The IC is what cools the charge from the turbo. Even if you spray pre, there is no way by the time you get past the turbo and through the ic that your charge is going to be the same temps as spraying post.
 

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I am no expert but have learned a lot recently on this topic
 

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YIKES!

Please disconnect this immediately. Anything injected into the airstream that is not air needs to be properly PRESSURIZED so it is a very fine atomized mist to mix in with the flowing air. You are going to damage something.

I am going to spare the nerdy math, and just quote the meth injection experts themselves (Devil's Own) from the FAQ section of their website (bold and underlined the big thing here):

Where to locate your alcohol-water injection nozzle - DevilsOwn Injection

We don't recommend this location at all, if you do not have the proper equipment, such as, the proper nozzle, nozzle size and high pressure pump. Locating the nozzle here is the most controversial location. The majority of alcohol/water injection users do not use this location. One reason for someone to inject at this location is the water/methanol mixture chemically alters the turbo compressor map. The water/methanol injection will dynamically shift the compressor map of the turbo, so that the compressor map exhibits the characteristics of a larger turbo. This sounds great but, the main issue with pre-turbo nozzle placement is what mixture can damage the compressor blade if the mixture is not properly atomized when passing through the turbo.

In order to inject pre-turbo with out compressor damage you need a high quality low volume nozzle and high enough pressure to get the water as finely misted as possible, and the smaller nozzle which allows for smaller/finer water droplets. We recommend you mount the nozzle as close to the compresser as possible.
 

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Engine Tuners are now starting to experiment with injecting fluids pre-turbo. Water, Alcohol, and Methanol are all being experimented with using varying amounts of ratios. The reason being that not only are you gaining the benefits of the cooling that will occur in the intake track, and eventually in the combustion chamber, but you are also cooling the intake charge of the air as it is being compressed.
When the turbocharger compresses the air at the compressor wheel, an enormous amount of heat is generated. This is why we must add intercoolers or after-coolers after the turbo to cool down that compressed air. While running low amounts of boost doesn’t necessarily require an intercooler, running high amounts of boost certainly requires one. As the turbo is asked to run higher and higher amounts of boost pressure, IE running a higher pressure ratio on its compressor map, the turbochargers efficiency drops and you loose efficiency to heat. By injecting water, or alcohol, or methanol pre turbo, you allow the liquid to absorb this heat as it changes from a liquid to a gas, which greatly drops the temperature of the compressed air.
Pro’s of Pre-turbo Injection:

1. Improves the efficiency of a turbo allowing a given turbochargers compressor to flow more air then the turbo’s compressor map says is possible.
2. Cools the intake air charge.
3. Fights off detonation and pre-ignition.
I would like to know where you read these pro's because #1 is just wrong. Citations please. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
You should probably delete this thread...No Seriously... The facts I have to share will only cause a flame debate because I get my information from trial/error and lots of online resources. Also I have some before and after data logs for the torque app showing various temperatures. but I'm sure someone will find a way to contradict that also lol I swear it's like talking religion in here and Tork is Jesus.. Sooo nevermind this never happen..
 

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You should probably delete this thread...No Seriously... The facts I have to share will only cause a flame debate because I get my information from trial/error and lots of online resources. Also I have some before and after data logs for the torque app showing various temperatures. but I'm sure someone will find a way to contradict that also lol I swear it's like talking religion in here and Tork is Jesus.. Sooo nevermind this never happen..
You've got it all wrong
I don't even know you personally, only here in the forum
Either way I don't want to see you damage anything. No matter what I care about everyone else running safe an reliable setups
This is what these type of forums are for
Your going to be told if something is wrong
I can understand you feeling like your being attacked.
But either way everything that has been said is for your own good
The way you are running this injection is going to give you a ton of issues in for the long run
Would you rather people chime in and suggest something, or let you do things that could possibly be wrong and end up with some type of failure?
 

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In the end run its your car
You pay for it, you drive it
We can't stop you from doing what you want to do
You don't have to do anything we suggest or say
In the end it's just and opinion
 

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Well said kneegradamus.
@precrack do you have links to these "facts". I'm guessing it is just links to other forums of people trying stuff out. I Google meth pre turbo and a lot of dsm and other forums came up so there is lots of people that do it and lots that say it's okay. I think though it's more for the guys that are running their turbos to the max and creating an extreme amount of boost and heat. Also it looks like some are running big nozzles post intercooler and a small nozzle pre turbo. That's the other thing. You are just squirting water into the intake right? To do it right you need a mist. Like what 6th said. You want something very high pressure low flow. Either way spraying before the turbo is not good but I also don't think it is needed unless you are running lots of boost. It will do more harm than good.
 

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You should probably delete this thread...No Seriously... The facts I have to share will only cause a flame debate because I get my information from trial/error and lots of online resources. Also I have some before and after data logs for the torque app showing various temperatures. but I'm sure someone will find a way to contradict that also lol I swear it's like talking religion in here and Tork is Jesus.. Sooo nevermind this never happen..
Wow , so your going to attack one of the few vendors that is actually experienced in making power with gdi, (let alone even making parts for the car )becuase you want to inject washerfluid into your intake with a ~5psi pump that is electrical taped together. Methanol injection works on pressure and atomization that is why the good pumps are 2-300 psi. And actually from our testing a preturbo nozzle that was properly set up actually was hurting power due to the design of the factory intercooler.

All you are doing right now is flooding your compressor wheel with water and one thing about water is it dosent like to be compressed. We are not bashing you or trying to flame you we are just here with prior knowledge and nohow of what works and what is just dangerous.
 

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You should probably delete this thread...No Seriously... The facts I have to share will only cause a flame debate because I get my information from trial/error and lots of online resources. Also I have some before and after data logs for the torque app showing various temperatures. but I'm sure someone will find a way to contradict that also lol I swear it's like talking religion in here and Tork is Jesus.. Sooo nevermind this never happen..
I would really like to see all the sources you have. The forums are for discussions and debates and I like debating back and forth and presenting reputable evidence.
Please, show us. It's only going to help everyone here if we go through it and establish what is right and wrong.
 

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I would really like to see all the sources you have. The forums are for discussions and debates and I like debating back and forth and presenting reputable evidence.
Please, show us. It's only going to help everyone here if we go through it and establish what is right and wrong.
I agree. This platform is relatively new, so why not bring other viewpoints to be analyzed?
 
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