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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So, weather is nice and hot. While I enjoy it, the car does not.

And it really gets warm...

I am not tuned, completely stock, with not to heavy foot. I can push it to 3-4k rpm from time to time.
And here is the scenario.

Ambient temperature is 30 C (86 F), gentle wind, full sun. A/C keeps inside the cabin 25 C (77 F).
Intake gets to 50-65 C (120-150 F). The high end is when stopped. When driving it drops to 55 (130) or so. On highway it will be at 40-45 (104-113).
If parked for a few moments (engine off), the highest I saw was 70 C (160 F). It dropped quickly of course.

That is from MAP on the intake manifold using ECU (ScanGauge). I use 6th vacuum block for boost.

Now engine.
Normal operating temp is 82 C (180 F). It is expected to have it a bit higher when using A/C or on hot day. However, the way this one behaves is beyond my "approval".
You see, I understand temp will go up. That is normal. But I would expect it to drop when driving, and it does not really do that.
It goes like that.
It is enough to have two short (half mile) red lights to get the temp to reach over 95 C (203 F). And then once you start rolling it does not really drop. Fan is running, I can hear it. I can see a bit of temperature movement, but after going for one mile at constant speed of 40 mph temp is still at 93 C (200 F). It takes a significant distance for it to drop.


I know I should not compare Hyundai Elantra that was 2.0 NA and was rated 150 HP... yet this one in same weather, with heavier driving (foot goes deeper) would barely reach 95 C and if did, a short distance would make the temp drop quickly.


I looked under the hood of Forte and I find that the radiator is very small.
Let me tell you this.
If I park, no A/C, whatever ambient is - let it warm up to 96 C, fan kicks in, engine temp drops to 89 C. Fan stops. Engine temp goes up very quickly again. Just like the radiator was already saturated with heat.

So... any larger radiator possible? Thicker? Not really wider as not much room, not taller as limitations of the body, but maybe thicker?

Also, for the AT.
I bet it gets hot as well. I could not see ATF temp, but I presume they are not low... so any ideas here?
Ideas like placement and brand/model.
 

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in the beginning i was wondering if there was an all aluminum radiator but couldn't find any.
the radiators are really small and the space is so confined so i'm guessing custom made.
i think if the mouth of the car was more open or if the CF bar that runs across wasn't there it would make for better flow / lower temps.
the veloster probably does better with heat because of its front bumper design.
 

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The car goes between 180-210. Mine since I have had it has kept that temp.

Now I have thrown in a 160 stat but was way to cold and the car ran more rich. I installed a transmission cooler with a fan so I deleted the stock location. I know pulling that away from the radiator should help big time.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
What radiator that is?
I see it is reverse flow, so the fan. Is it activated by temp switch?
 

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Pretty cool Forte. The stock setup of VTs and Fortes refrence the trans cooler for ATs is horrid. AT fluid the same temp as ones coolant is totally unaccepatable. Unlike engine oil the cooler the AT fluid is the more efficient it is. There is no moisture accuulation in an AT trans. From an engineering standpoint the perfect temp for AT fluid is 130 F. (From a Hyundai trasnaxle engineer).:cool:

My setup runs 122 F to 155F. Even in 100 degree weather.
I used SETRAB coolers and SPAL fans.$$$$

*** If you run a FMIC in either a VT or a Forte it opens up a myriad of choice refrence a AT/oil cooler setup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Pretty cool Forte. The stock setup of VTs and Fortes refrence the trans cooler for ATs is horrid.

Unlike engine oil the cooler the AT fluid is the more efficient it is.

. From an engineering standpoint the perfect temp for AT fluid is 130 F. (From a Hyundai trasnaxle engineer).
I agree with all of these, but how to achieve it?

My setup runs 122 F to 155F. Even in 100 degree weather.
I used SETRAB coolers and SPAL fans.$$$$
How did you get to keep it that low?

*** If you run a FMIC in either a VT or a Forte it opens up a myriad of choice refrence a AT/oil cooler setup.
I would say it limits what can be done...




So, I finally got the ScanGauge to display ATF temperature.
It runs F instead of C, but that's OK.

After a 2-hour trip, gentle drive, ATF was almost at 176 (80 C). But it was colder day, such as 78 F (26 C).

I will keep an eye on it now and see how it goes. I still do not like the idea of warming up coolant before it enters back the engine. Especially when the engine is at 200 F or above. I would say radiator heats up the ATF then.
 

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I agree with all of these, but how to achieve it?



How did you get to keep it that low?



I would say it limits what can be done...




So, I finally got the ScanGauge to display ATF temperature.
It runs F instead of C, but that's OK.

After a 2-hour trip, gentle drive, ATF was almost at 176 (80 C). But it was colder day, such as 78 F (26 C).

I will keep an eye on it now and see how it goes. I still do not like the idea of warming up coolant before it enters back the engine. Especially when the engine is at 200 F or above. I would say radiator heats up the ATF then.
The removal of the IC releases that prime real estate. A verticle dual system cooler is able to be placed there.

The Dual system comes originally from Corvette motors. Its super capable. Just from static convection. Add the SPAL fans, and you can dump heat at will. Check out my build thread for details and pics.
Eningine oil and trans axle oil release much more heat faster than coolant alone. Its amazing to witness. Do a series of WOTs, turn on the fans, BAM. Evrything is back to sub 180 in less than 30 seconds.
 

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I will keep an eye on it now and see how it goes. I still do not like the idea of warming up coolant before it enters back the engine. Especially when the engine is at 200 F or above. I would say radiator heats up the ATF then.
This is the problem with the stock setup. Per ECM and thermostatic setup, the ATF is subject to a minimum of 180. 200 plus are common. VTs and Forte's.

Coolant is a bad arbitor of keeping transaxle fluid where it should be. Thats "should be".
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The removal of the IC releases that prime real estate. A verticle dual system cooler is able to be placed there.
I am so stupid... I thought only about the space taken by the radiator, not the removal of OEM IC.:rolleyes:

All Celsius.
Ambient 26 - ATF at 80, coolant at 82, engine oil at 90 to 95.
On the way back - ambient 14-18, ATF 77, oil same, coolant same.

That was strictly highway, at 65-85 mph. Most of the time steady 65.

A few pulls and ATF climbs to 85. Coolant stays basically same, Oil - a bit higher, but at this speeds it cools down quickly. Especially on engine braking decent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
will dig through it...
 

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Running 200°F to 230°F is perfectly normal (personally I prefer closer to 200°) but 99% of engines are designed to operate at the higher temps for a few reasons.
First being fuel economy, warmer engines and AIT temps use less fuel and the cylinders and pistons are designed to be perfectly round at that temperature
range. Running too cold of an engine will get you premature wear of pistons and rings along with loss of power. Going from a 195° stat to a 185° stat wouldn't
be enough to cause an issue but dropping to a 160° would require a bit more than a tune (if it was done right).
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Running 200°F to 230°F is perfectly normal (personally
I would love to have engine operating temp to be in 200 F. 230 is a bit too high, though...
Too hot is starting at about 205 F, low end is 180 F. Too low for my personal liking.
I'd love to have thermostat that opens at 185 F. OEM is 180 F. That five degrees is a lot for winter time, while in summer would make no difference.


Going from a 195° stat to a 185° stat wouldn't
be enough to cause an issue but dropping to a 160° would require a bit more than a tune (if it was done right).
This is not about engine temp. It is about radiator being too small for the heat that is dumped into it. Both coolant and ATF drop their heat load there. Add A/C condenser in the front and basically it is running too hot for ATF that is cooled in the radiator.
Besides, thermostat has not much to do with radiator temperature. If T-stat opens as it should, the limiting factor is the heat exchange rate in the radiator. Also, it's heat capacity.

I bet MTs are not really running into this problem due to not having ATF cooler. Also, per specs, they hold a bit more of coolant what probably is associated with the missing ATF cooling loop from the radiator. Hence, their heat load is lesser and radiators have larger heat capacity.
 

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Running 200°F to 230°F is perfectly normal (personally I prefer closer to 200°) but 99% of engines are designed to operate at the higher temps for a few reasons.
First being fuel economy, warmer engines and AIT temps use less fuel and the cylinders and pistons are designed to be perfectly round at that temperature
range. Running too cold of an engine will get you premature wear of pistons and rings along with loss of power. Going from a 195° stat to a 185° stat wouldn't
be enough to cause an issue but dropping to a 160° would require a bit more than a tune (if it was done right).
The 1.6 T is designed to run a 180 F thermostat for all the above reasons.
In the 1.6 T what he says above is correct as it relates to the CVVT measure. This is in the heads, the hottest measure in the engine, (with a sensor). The important numbers to watch and control/manipulate are:

1. Your operational coolant temp.( Should stay 177F to maybe 195F. This is without the radiator fan kicking in.) My VTs radiator fan kicks on at 203F or when the air is on.
2. Your operational trans temp. In stock Kia and Vts this is the same as coolant temp because they piggy back on each other. Very poor design. Needs a trans cooler.
3. The ATF temp if you are an AT which is the measure of fluid going back into the trans. From an engineering standpoint 155 F is perfection. (Ref. Hyundai transaxle engineer.)

If you have systems or mods that keep the above in acceptable or good running fluid temps when running a CVVT temp above 200F to 230 F is no big deal. If your fluids are above 195 F thats a problem especially with regard to ATF fluid.
**So say one is rocketing around boosting like a bitch. Your CVVT is showing 212- 218 F. BUT your coolant is 183F and your ATF is 150 F. AWESOME !!! It proves your engine is makin and dumpin the heat. The way it should be.

Oil measure must be the oil going back into the sump. I put my own sensor in the line after the cooler and just before she dumps back into the sump. From a oil cooler, a 170 F oil temp going back into the sump is a wonderous thing. Especially if your CVVT measure is above 210 F. All you are doing is moving heat.
 

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The 1.6 T is designed to run a 180 F thermostat for all the above reasons.
In the 1.6 T what he says above is correct as it relates to the CVVT measure. This is in the heads, the hottest measure in the engine, (with a sensor). The important numbers to watch and control/manipulate are:

1. Your operational coolant temp.( Should stay 177F to maybe 195F. This is without the radiator fan kicking in.) My VTs radiator fan kicks on at 203F or when the air is on.
2. Your operational trans temp. In stock Kia and Vts this is the same as coolant temp because they piggy back on each other. Very poor design. Needs a trans cooler.
3. The ATF temp if you are an AT which is the measure of fluid going back into the trans. From an engineering standpoint 155 F is perfection. (Ref. Hyundai transaxle engineer.)

If you have systems or mods that keep the above in acceptable or good running fluid temps when running a CVVT temp above 200F to 230 F is no big deal. If your fluids are above 195 F thats a problem especially with regard to ATF fluid.
**So say one is rocketing around boosting like a bitch. Your CVVT is showing 212- 218 F. BUT your coolant is 183F and your ATF is 150 F. AWESOME !!! It proves your engine is makin and dumpin the heat. The way it should be.

Oil measure must be the oil going back into the sump. I put my own sensor in the line after the cooler and just before she dumps back into the sump. From a oil cooler, a 170 F oil temp going back into the sump is a wonderous thing. Especially if your CVVT measure is above 210 F. All you are doing is moving heat.
would you be able to explain why trdtoy with his VT AT and the use of 160F thermostat, he didn't have any issues except that it drove better especially where the weather is hot most of the year around. i doubt he is lying about anything but there may be truth about having a tune bc i think he said his was tuned.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The 1.6 T is designed to run a 180 F thermostat for all the above reasons.
In the 1.6 T what he says above is correct as it relates to the CVVT measure. This is in the heads, the hottest measure in the engine, (with a sensor).
So that was somewhere between lines... How would I know he was talking about CVVT? It was coolant temperature mentioned.

1. Your operational coolant temp.( Should stay 177F to maybe 195F. This is without the radiator fan kicking in.) My VTs radiator fan kicks on at 203F or when the air is on.
2. Your operational trans temp. In stock Kia and Vts this is the same as coolant temp because they piggy back on each other. Very poor design. Needs a trans cooler.
3. The ATF temp if you are an AT which is the measure of fluid going back into the trans. From an engineering standpoint 155 F is perfection. (Ref. Hyundai transaxle engineer.)
1 - same here. Fan kicks in at 95 C (203 F). I dislike 80 C (177 F) for two reasons and both refer to winter time. Oil stays too cold and keeps moisture. Second is idle speed/power and heating. Once the car reaches 82 C, thermostat opens. ECU sees 82 C as operating temperature and that's the moment when idle drops to regular speed. The problem is that wit heater on the thermostat closes at 78 C or even later. As a result idle goes up and power limitations start kicking in.
2. that's the plan
3. I am not sure if the ATF temp is actually measure of the fluid coming back to it. Are you referring to PCM readback?



In regards to 160 F thermostat.
I bet only problems are on the warm up time. Seeing he is in NC, so probably not much of winter there depending on location, engine warms up to 180 F anyway. While in 182 F thermostat it fully opens at 203 F, 160 F thermo would fully open at 180 F.
So with some more power produced, more heat generated it runs somehow ok.
I personally would rather get a larger radiator than drop thermo.
 
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If you do the 160 you need to have a tuner change the ECM to fully suit it.

Texas, Florida, anywhere warm it might be a good idea.

ATF temp on torque uses a sensor located where it re enters the trans. The auto trans measure is the interior or operational "in the mix" temp. Thats the way the transaxle guy explained it to me.

With higher CVVT temps the theory of condesantion in the oil is not relevant. The oil is reaching sufficient temps for it to "evaporate' because of heat. Verification of this is easy. If you run a 2 OCC system, if you low or PCV side OCC doesnt accumulate significant volumes, everything is good.

Besides if one is changing oil every 3K, not an issue.
 

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If you do the 160 you need to have a tuner change the ECM to fully suit it.

Texas, Florida, anywhere warm it might be a good idea.

ATF temp on torque uses a sensor located where it re enters the trans. The auto trans measure is the interior or operational "in the mix" temp. Thats the way the transaxle guy explained it to me.

With higher CVVT temps the theory of condesantion in the oil is not relevant. The oil is reaching sufficient temps for it to "evaporate' because of heat. Verification of this is easy. If you run a 2 OCC system, if you low or PCV side OCC doesnt accumulate significant volumes, everything is good.

Besides if one is changing oil every 3K, not an issue.
This^^^^ I had a 160 in mine and it did run cooler and all but ran stupid rich and waisted gas. I didn't have Tork adjust for it since I was just seeing what it would do. John at Tork said he would adjust it if I wanted. I feel we just need a T-stat that has a way bigger opening. The OEM one is ridiculously small on the opening.

I installed a transmission cooler with a 10" fan on my car and have yet to hear it turn on and the in line stat is set for 180* and shut down at 170*. But I haven't driven far yet or pushed it since the rebuild.
 

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would you be able to explain why trdtoy with his VT AT and the use of 160F thermostat, he didn't have any issues except that it drove better especially where the weather is hot most of the year around. i doubt he is lying about anything but there may be truth about having a tune bc i think he said his was tuned.
Yes, hes tuned, Dont know if he tuned for it though.
 

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This^^^^ I had a 160 in mine and it did run cooler and all but ran stupid rich and waisted gas. I didn't have Tork adjust for it since I was just seeing what it would do. John at Tork said he would adjust it if I wanted. I feel we just need a T-stat that has a way bigger opening. The OEM one is ridiculously small on the opening.
Yes, hes tuned, Dont know if he tuned for it though.
If you do the 160 you need to have a tuner change the ECM to fully suit it.

Texas, Florida, anywhere warm it might be a good idea.

ATF temp on torque uses a sensor located where it re enters the trans. The auto trans measure is the interior or operational "in the mix" temp. Thats the way the transaxle guy explained it to me.
okay so 160F thermostats are a bit much for a stock tune. how about 170F version?
is it all to do with being tuned for it or can i still benefit with a 170F version under stock tune then?
it does get hot a lot here and the engine bay smells of burning metal after i do some spirited driving.
anyone tried 170F version?
with regards to what forte5 said, i wonder if the hole can be modified a little bigger without affecting functionality to increase flow.
 
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