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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Aside from the new front styling, (which I think is OK but doesn't have that different then every other Kia look now), I didn't realize the 2017 models had so many changes in equipment... For all SX's, the "base" 6 speaker stereo is gone and a 7" touchscreen system with CarPlay and Android Auto is standard, thankfully, as well as flat-bottom steering wheel, leather, and heated front seats also standard. Although the new 7-speed DCT Automatic is considered "Optional" the manual equipped models basically come with the Premium Tech package (minus rear cross traffic and blindspot): You get leather sport seats w/10 way adjustment lumbar/front ventilated w/memory settings, navigation, "SuperVision" cluster display, dual zone climate control, auto dimming rear view mirror, etc. So basically if you want a manual you have to buy it loaded, while the DCT is available at a lower price without forcing you to get the Premium Tech package. There are not many out there, in my #25 size US city there is only one DCT and 5 manuals available in a metro area of over 2 million people... I'm a little frustrated with the short gearing and hence low freeway mileage of my '16 manual, don't like the clutch and don't want to mess with CDV delete and know my credit will be far better a year after buying my '16, so I'm considering trading in towards the end of the year... There always seems to be lots of rebates, I'm thinking I could get a DCT for under $20k late in the year/early next year. Very tempting for a DCT and the upgraded standard features!
 

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The Hyundai/Kia DCTs don't have the best rep yet. Still going through the growing pains that VW went through with theirs years ago.

While I would like the flat bottom wheel and the new head unit it's just not worth eating our horrible trade-in value to get there. And there are aftermarket flat bottom wheels and stereos available.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The Hyundai/Kia DCTs don't have the best rep yet. Still going through the growing pains that VW went through with theirs years ago.

While I would like the flat bottom wheel and the new head unit it's just not worth eating our horrible trade-in value to get there. And there are aftermarket flat bottom wheels and stereos available.
The DCT has been out for a few years already I believe, and it has a pretty good reputation, it's just not perfect none of them are and gets better mileage than the too low geared manual, that also has a crappy clutch... Also we are talking heated leather seats standard too as well as the head unit upgrades, I couldn't care less about the steering wheel... Yes, there are aftermarket units available, but that is like $400 for a head unit, along with the dash and steering wheel control adapter that doesn't map everything, but close enough, but the dash kits aren't a very nice color/quality match either... Along with my rapidly improving credit, I think I can get into one maybe in January, we'll see.

Edit: Yep, the DCT has been out for 3 years, plenty of time to fine tune it. http://blog.caranddriver.com/kia-introduces-new-seven-speed-dual-clutch-transmission/
 

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Yeah and there's also a lawsuit that includes the 17 Veloster, so likely will the Forte too, because of the problems it still has.
Hyundai Dual-Clutch Transmission (DCT) Lawsuit Filed | CarComplaints.com

Honestly,...RUN away from the current DCT in the VT or the Forte. Its the same cost cut unit.
My dudes at the dealer HATE these things. They are swamped with Tuscons/Vts with these units. Problem,problems.

Thats not to say DCT in general are bad. The big V8 Equus/Genesis transaxles are DCT and they are works of art. MONEY separates the bad from the good. Period.
http://www.forteturbo.org/forum/9-kia-forte-turbo-discussions/2145-1-6t-7dct-drive.html

$400 for a head unit and a couple hundred for heated seats is nothing compared to losing $8k on a trade-in.
 

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$400 for a head unit and a couple hundred for heated seats is nothing compared to losing $8k on a trade-in.
No necessarily 8k lost... It all depends how much he paid for 2016.

For example. I got mine, 2015 MT (used) with package 1 (leather, roof) for $16k OTD. It had 11k miles and was about 18 months old.
After about 6 months I traded it in for 2016 AT (new, with 25 miles on ODO) with package, and the trade in was $13.5k, and I paid OTD $8.5k... Mine at that time was what? Two years old or so... and it had about 20k miles.
So taking into consideration age difference (2 years) and 20k miles, and warranty, and equipment (not that it was very important, but NAVI is helpful, especially after update that KIA handed to me) I would say it was a great deal.
Doing math - MSRP was $27'500. I paid OTD, if used trade in - $22'000.
If one was to use what I paid for my 2015 as opposed to trade in value, well, that would be what, $24.5k. Still about $5'000 below what MSRP after tax would be.

So it all depends on the deal you get.
Sure, I drove 5 hours to get it, but heck, locals could not beat it.

As for DCT.
I did not drive Forte with DCT, I did not drive Veloster... but I had driven Tuscon. It was 1.6T as well.
What I can say - it drove great - quick shifts, smooth. The only exception was stumping on gas from dead stop. There was no way of "torquing" it... and the take off was kind of slow. Once the clutch engaged - it was pulling.


I think, for next time, I will consider myself LEASING the car and treating it like it would be mine. Getting the best deal out of it so that if I decide to buy it out will not be so bad.
But if, for example the 2017 DCT was causing a lot of problems - in two or three years I will drop it off and problem gone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yeah and there's also a lawsuit that includes the 17 Veloster, so likely will the Forte too, because of the problems it still has.
Hyundai Dual-Clutch Transmission (DCT) Lawsuit Filed | CarComplaints.com


http://www.forteturbo.org/forum/9-kia-forte-turbo-discussions/2145-1-6t-7dct-drive.html

$400 for a head unit and a couple hundred for heated seats is nothing compared to losing $8k on a trade-in.
I wonder how much the problems are related to soccer moms trying to drive it like a traditional auto... I had a Focus with the DCT, and ya, 2 days after I got it with only 18k miles it needed a rebuild with new seals , clutch pack and software, and another software update later. If you drove it with manual-minded timing, going on and off the throttle deliberately and not back and forth from gas and brake quickly, it pulled very nicely, so I wouldn't mind that... Hopefully, any take off delay will be minimized by the time I get one, with software updates hopefully... Either way, I'll be careful to make SURE that's what I really want to do and consider how much I lose on trade. I got the current car for $19k but had to roll in some negative equity in to that too, albeit at a lower interest rate than I was at... So ya, I'm going to carefully think about it, I know I wouldn't pull the trigger until at least January and see where I'm at financially.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
No necessarily 8k lost... It all depends how much he paid for 2016.

For example. I got mine, 2015 MT (used) with package 1 (leather, roof) for $16k OTD. It had 11k miles and was about 18 months old.
After about 6 months I traded it in for 2016 AT (new, with 25 miles on ODO) with package, and the trade in was $13.5k, and I paid OTD $8.5k... Mine at that time was what? Two years old or so... and it had about 20k miles.
So taking into consideration age difference (2 years) and 20k miles, and warranty, and equipment (not that it was very important, but NAVI is helpful, especially after update that KIA handed to me) I would say it was a great deal.
Doing math - MSRP was $27'500. I paid OTD, if used trade in - $22'000.
If one was to use what I paid for my 2015 as opposed to trade in value, well, that would be what, $24.5k. Still about $5'000 below what MSRP after tax would be.

So it all depends on the deal you get.
Sure, I drove 5 hours to get it, but heck, locals could not beat it.

As for DCT.
I did not drive Forte with DCT, I did not drive Veloster... but I had driven Tuscon. It was 1.6T as well.
What I can say - it drove great - quick shifts, smooth. The only exception was stumping on gas from dead stop. There was no way of "torquing" it... and the take off was kind of slow. Once the clutch engaged - it was pulling.


I think, for next time, I will consider myself LEASING the car and treating it like it would be mine. Getting the best deal out of it so that if I decide to buy it out will not be so bad.
But if, for example the 2017 DCT was causing a lot of problems - in two or three years I will drop it off and problem gone.
Yes, I definitely have to consider a number of things including what interest rate I can get as well how much negative equity.. I just want to start thinking of possible upgrades to get me out of this too low geared manual that just doesn't deliver the mileage and too much RPM's for typical American 75-80 highway speeds. 3000 RPM at 70 is just too high, even the 1.5L Honda turbo was at 75 MPH at 3000 and returned better mileage.. I just did the new intake sensor the other day and am happy with the smoothness, for sure, I'll just have to see how throttle response and mileage turns out after I did the ECU reset and give it time for adapting.
 

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Oof. So potentially carrying in negative equity from 2 prior cars into the new one? The only way I would do that is if vehicle needs drastically changed. Like oops you're suddenly having triplets and need a minivan.

The 7 speed DCT only gets 1 more mpg highway. At 12,500 miles/year that saves you a whopping $36. Meaning you would have to drive well beyond your lifespan to recoup costs.

If you want a better driving experience with better mpg and more mod potential, get the Golf/GTI.
 

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Guys.... mileage is a big lie.

I had MT.
Now I have AT. Same car one would say.

Heck no.
A big fat NO.

First disclaimer:
all numbers are based on the on-board using US units. The on-board is off by about 10%. Hence, 22 mpg is actually 20 mpg.
Got it?

So, 2015 MT. Stock. I got it with 10k miles, returned with 20k miles.
Summer. No AC.
On highway I could get 36 mpg easily. The day I bought it I got 39 mpg (yes, 39) on 500 miles trip. One tank. I drained almost to bone dry, but made in one tank.
On my daily commute, around 10 miles, 15 minutes, speeds up to 55 mph - on a good day I could gently get 35 mpg. Normally about 32 mpg.
Overall, for 10k miles I averaged 29 mpg. That is in zip: 48840 (Lansing, MI) between March and November of 2016.

Now, 2016, AT, stock. Currently about 5000 miles.
The highest I got was 32 mpg highway. Going gently as I wanted to see how better it is.
Daily commute - the best on warm day was 29 mpg. Normally it would be about 24-26 mpg. On cold days - forget, 22 tops.
Average for now is 22 mpg...

I DID NOT swap them for the fuel efficiency. I did it for the transmission only.


So it is a big BS that higher gear will make it more fuel efficient.
Fuel efficiency depends on many factors, but the first one is your foot.
Our cars somehow are very poor in fuel economy. Why? I have no clue. Maybe running too rich. Tune could fix it to some extend.

This one will tell you what you can expect in which gear.
http://www.forteturbo.org/forum/19-...6-forte-speed-each-gear-manual-automatic.html

DCT supposed to be more efficient, but I doubt it will be a big difference.

And one more thing - Honda 1.5 is CVT!!!! Do not go there... I feel sick every time I rent a car with CVT.


See this...

Watch the whole thing for fun and giggles, or skip to 4:00 to see the best part.
 

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Yeah, that's my point there will be no substantial difference to warrant using that as a reason for trade-in. You'd have to be some traveling salesman always on the road and even then switching to like a 50mpg diesel in order to justify that.

But that does seem to be the case I've seen on the forums and the FB group. The manuals have been turning in higher mpg than the autos. My running average is 29mpg and that is nearly all city/suburb driving. Very rarely ever on highway. And when I am it's usually in traffic on the 5/205 through Portland.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Guys.... mileage is a big lie.

First disclaimer:
all numbers are based on the on-board using US units. The on-board is off by about 10%. Hence, 22 mpg is actually 20 mpg.
Got it?

And one more thing - Honda 1.5 is CVT!!!! Do not go there... I feel sick every time I rent a car with CVT.
OK, so I was wondering where the computer accuracy was, I was hoping it wasn't that way, but ya, I assumed 10% too optimistic... I was "getting" nearly 30 MPG mixed and figured that was too optimistic, but not too far off... I'll have to remember to do a MANUAL calculation next time I fill up and actually reset the trip computer to get the actual miles driven...

And NO, definitively not referring to a BASE Honda Civic, i'm referring to the Sport (182 HP) or Si (205 HP) that has 6 speed manual available and can both can be easily tuned for more power too... C'mon, we drive top trim turbo carsand you think I'd even consider a base model CVT? LOL.. But no way with that styling either, WAAAAY too boy-racer for this mid '40's dad no matter how much quality is there...

Also, you have figure in that my interest rate was cut in half from 24.99 to 12.49 getting this car, I figure I can qualify for the very low/zero Kia finance rate hopefully in January, so that's a HUGE factor.. Even if I have to eat negative equity, I'll feel a lot better on principal alone getting a very low rate, but then, I could always refinance too, but if I can get 0%... ya.
 

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Also, you have figure in that my interest rate was cut in half from 24.99 to 12.49 getting this car, I figure I can qualify for the very low/zero Kia finance rate hopefully in January, so that's a HUGE factor.. Even if I have to eat negative equity, I'll feel a lot better on principal alone getting a very low rate, but then, I could always refinance too, but if I can get 0%... ya.
I admit, that makes sense on long term.

And NO, definitively not referring to a BASE Honda Civic, i'm referring to the Sport (182 HP) or Si (205 HP) that has 6 speed manual available and can both can be easily tuned for more power too... C'mon, we drive top trim turbo carsand you think I'd even consider a base model CVT? LOL.. But no way with that styling either, WAAAAY too boy-racer for this mid '40's dad no matter how much quality is there...
The 1.5T is offered in MT and AT, but AT is CVT. All Japanese cars went into CVT. Why? Oh why??
 

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Also, you have figure in that my interest rate was cut in half from 24.99 to 12.49 getting this car, I figure I can qualify for the very low/zero Kia finance rate hopefully in January, so that's a HUGE factor.. Even if I have to eat negative equity, I'll feel a lot better on principal alone getting a very low rate, but then, I could always refinance too, but if I can get 0%... ya.
Refinance your existing loan. Don't get more loan. A credit union will still give you new car rates on a year old car down to 1.49%.

After a year you think you'll have credit sorted enough to have gone from 12.49%, which is well into sub-prime territory, to potentially qualifying with the 0% which generally requires a 700 fico score? That's impressive.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Oof. So potentially carrying in negative equity from 2 prior cars into the new one? The only way I would do that is if vehicle needs drastically changed. Like oops you're suddenly having triplets and need a minivan.

The 7 speed DCT only gets 1 more mpg highway. At 12,500 miles/year that saves you a whopping $36. Meaning you would have to drive well beyond your lifespan to recoup costs.

If you want a better driving experience with better mpg and more mod potential, get the Golf/GTI.
You're right, I thought it was a full 3 MPG better too... I just hope we get these bottlenecks in PDX fixed, 205 is a mess, especially on the south end, and some other spots too... I hope we pass the gas tax and DMV increase, we just have to find more money for the roads...

Now, I do think after being busted for misleading mileage figures before, I'm hoping the 29 MPG freeway is too conservative, but if the computer really is 10% optimistic, then I'm just not happy with that and will move on to another brand sadly, I REALLY doubt this cheap gas will last much longer... I might even get a Focus ST, it even gets 32 freeway, but does have a lot less rear seat leg room, but my son is older now and I rarely have people in the back except for my very occasional Lyft driving.
 

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Just forget about the mpg difference man. Unless you're going to something with around double the mpg and put on a ton of miles you absolutely should not trade vehicles over it.

Gas prices are effectively capped around $4 as at that price our domestic shale oil production becomes more profitable again and that floods the market with supply.

Even if you went from a 29mpg Forte to a 40mpg hybrid your annual savings is $295. Lose around $6k on trade. So you'd have to drive it 20 years to recoup that cost. Even if gas is $4.50/gallon annual savings is still just $500. And that's in some 40mpg CVT hybrid you wouldn't be caught dead in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Just forget about the mpg difference man. Unless you're going to something with around double the mpg and put on a ton of miles you absolutely should not trade vehicles over it.

Gas prices are effectively capped around $4 as at that price our domestic shale oil production becomes more profitable again and that floods the market with supply.

Even if you went from a 29mpg Forte to a 40mpg hybrid your annual savings is $295. Lose around $6k on trade. So you'd have to drive it 20 years to recoup that cost. Even if gas is $4.50/gallon annual savings is still just $500. And that's in some 40mpg CVT hybrid you wouldn't be caught dead in.
Well, not to argue semantics, but regular gas cars get 40 MPG now (I.E. Mazda, w/o CVT) with hybrids close to 60... But again, that's only one small part of the deal, if I can make a deal that lowers my interest rate from 12.49 to 0 or 1.9, then it may be worth it, along with the better mileage... Or else I could refinance too, that may be an option... Thanks for the input!
 

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Yeah the new head unit is one of the things I like about the new car. Thing is, I don't think it's 100% plug and play, and I've had a limited dig around for info (got the wiring diagrams and factory many for the 2017 audio stuff). Sure $400 to get a new CarPlay radio in my 2014, but it's not exactly plug and play if you want to retain all of the existing functionality you have with the current nav unit. the 2017 unit in theory could be a lot easier to put in, but I'm not that great when it comes to making up wiring and stuff like that. If I could find one cheap enough, I might give it a shot though.
 

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Yeah, frankly you should probably talk to a financial adviser. You got out of your Audi to save money right? Eating a bunch more negative equity adding a large amount to your principal is not a good move. You'll be paying Audi money for a Kia hatch. Refinancing to an easily doable 4% or lower with cleaned up credit should save you around $100/month. Adding $6k to principal in negative equity and getting 0% only saves you $50/month.
 

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I financed mine on 3 years at 1.99% APR (that was roughly 27k). I would hate paying bank too much. :)
It is a big hit on pocket, but a quite saving overall vs even 4 years with higher %.
 

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Yeah have the same rate but I wasn't too concerned with going to a 5 year. Investments return more than that easy.
 
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